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MOTHER CHURCH/ "You don't find the
Grail, TURN
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THE GREAT JESUS INTERVIEW There is no original sin Rather, I am an Awakened One The Divine is penetrating the
whole of existence The Revelation is ongoing In these most desperate of times Jesus The essence of Christian belief is that "Jesus lives". At the same time there is continuous controversy about his teaching. For two thousand years Christianity is split in countless fractions all claiming to possessing the Truth. Theologians have been indulging in speculations e.g. interpretations to such an extent, that the "true message" has become obscured. Nobody seems to be interested in Jesus' own opinions. They don't take their own faith literally. However, if Jesus is alive as they claim he is, then it must be possible to directly contact him. And this is exactly what Han Marie Stiekema did. I: Jesus, I call on you. Are you there? Do you hear me? JESUS: Yes, yes, sure. I: O, I am so happy. I fact, I never really expected that you were real. JESUS: You never tried it, that's why. I: Honestly, I am so trembling at the moment, that I don't know what to say. JESUS: Actually, I am very happy that you have invited me to speak. For two thousand years - although all saying that "I live" - nobody has ever got the idea of contacting me directly. Not being able to express myself was the greatest ordeal ever. I: But what about all those learned men: apostles, church fathers, theologians, popes, bishops, priests, ministers and all others, who were involving themselves and still are in promoting your message? Isn't the Church representing you on earth? JESUS: These pedants e.g. wiseacres are only interested in their own opinions. They misused my message in order to strengthen their own positions, denying the greatest Truth of all, namely that I am Eternally Present. I: Isn't the Bible God's word? JESUS: The Bible served the purpose of establishing power. It has very little to do with the Truth. With the Bible in their hands the clergy had an instrument to oppress all their "adversaries". As you know only an estimate 15% of my words are genuine*. With the discoveries of Nag Hammadi people suddenly became aware of a totally different interpretation of my stay on earth. However, even those Gnostic scriptures don't give the full account. * As has been proven by prof.dr.G.Lüdemann and many others. I: I think the most crucial question of all is "are you God?" JESUS: I cannot tell you how much I regret the controversies caused by this issue. It cannot be understood without seeing it in a broader context of Jewish religion and beyond. I: Could you explain? JESUS: Well, my life at that time didn't originate "out of the blue" as many scholars try to claim. During my life I was always very much aware of that. As you know, I repeatedly emphasized my mission as to restore the tradition. Of course, this my effort has been purposely misinterpreted. I: You mean during your life already. JESUS: Well, Jewish tradition didn't have the coherence later writers try us to believe. In fact there were two contradicting tendences: that of the popular Mother Goddess religion on the one hand and the legalistic fundamentalist JHWH religion on the other. In fact, the Old Testament is an account of how the latter tried to crush the former. I: Did you consciously considered yourself to be a part of that struggle? JESUS: Didn't I always chose the side of the poor, those in need, the sick and the oppressed? I: And women. JESUS: Exactly. Coming back to your original question. The traditional view - cherished by the Canaanites - consisted of the Mother Goddess (Asherah/Astarte) as a symbol of the Ultimate Reality. She is the Cosmic Womb out of which everything is born, while continuously returning. It had a continuity with archaic times, especially with Sumerian and Babylonian culture. For instance, during the Babylonian Exile the Hebrews assimilated a lot of those views and practices. I: Christians don't know about this. Why haven't you elaborated on this issue during your life? JESUS: The oppression of the (Levite) priests had already reached its completion. Therefore, it wasn't possible to come to the open with it. Thus, while publicly expressing myself in an orthodox way, I simultaneously tried to work on restoring the old tradition. In this tradition the Light - "God" - is born out of the Mother's Womb. In ancient times "he" was personified by the Son-Lover, the Vegetation God, who - in order to safeguard the harvest - had to sacrifice himself every autumn in order to be reborn in spring. I: Is this the tradition you tried to restore? JESUS: What I try to explain here is how "God" became personal. Later developments only emphasized that. As you know the Hebrews were nomads invading the Canaanite Motherland. They worshipped a tribal "God" which they called JHWH. As is always the case with tribal Gods, there was a personal relationship between both. In exchange for (total) obedience, JHWH "promised" to protect "his" people. The consequence was a continuous discussion, argument and dispute among the two. I: Which even more strenghtened the idea of a "personal God". JESUS: That's right. It was the foundation of the religion at the time I was born. A factor which couldn't be neglected. It depended on the audience I was talking to. To the crowd I spoke in terms of the "Father", while in private I repeatedly stressed the impersonal character of the Ultimate. I: Like we know now of the Gnostic Nag Hammadi texts. JESUS: In fact, there were countless other texts. Also ones in which I emphasized the Mother as being the Beyond. Unfortunately, those texts have been all destroyed by the Church people. But yes, the ancient knowledge can be found again in texts quoted by Irenaeus for example. Here it is said that God (the Father!) was repremanded by his Mother. I: So how do you explain, that in the course of time these same people declared you not only the Son of God, but also "God?" JESUS: As you know, during my life I have never called myself "God". However, by trying to re-establish the Mother tradition I cherished the Son-Lover concept as an ideal. I: Does that mean, that you yourself have given cause to the misconception, that would follow later? JESUS: Despite the fact, that I repeatedly emphasized that "I was sent by the Father" and that "everything comes from Him", they eventually have projected the God-concept on me. Obviously, this served their ambition to founding a hierarchical Church, something I would never have approved of. I: So, what is the Truth behind this all? JESUS: They have mixed up "God" with God-Experience. The former is a label people put on you, the latter is an experience from within. I: The latter also making you Divine? JESUS: The Ultimate is embracing e.g. penetrating the entire universe - people, trees, plants, animals, rocks, rivers, clouds - without exception. That means that the whole existence is ultimately Divine. Some experience this, others don't. In my life I was granted this inexpressible privilege. I: And because people had only one way to interpret it..... JESUS: .....they interpreted it wrongly. In fact, countless people of all times and cultures have similar experiences. That's why there is such a spontaneous, genuine and joyful understanding between them. I: A short while ago you stated, that you are "Eternally Present". What does it mean? JESUS: In and after the God-Experience you recognize Eternity to be your True Identity. While in death your temporary identity disappears, the True Self remains, it is always there. It is the Omni-Present Impersonal Ultimate Reality. I. So that's what you are? JESUS: Not the personalized "God", because that is all projection. The Divine on the other hand is the Essence of the entire universe, being the Original Source of everything existing. It is What-You-Really-Are. What everybody Ultimately Is. That's why I taught to my spiritual disciples "The Light is within and around you" and "The ones with insight will become like Me". I: Right now I talk to you as a person. How is that possible? JESUS: My personality - like everybodies' - has become part of the storehouse of the collective unconscious archetypical experience of mankind. It is there in a dormant state. If you call upon it - provided your intention is pure - it will be resonating with your call and comes into existence. Do you understand? I. At the time of your earthly life very few understood you. JESUS: That depends how you look at it. There was an inner and an outer circle. The former consisting of Mary Magdalene, Thomas and a few others; the latter consisting of the rest. I. Why had you such poor results with your teaching? I mean, even those, who later took the lead in founding the Church "didn't understand you", did they? JESUS: Okay, I am going to tell you one of the best kept secrets ever. Look, when I started my career as a healer, I came across many common people. Almost all of them still secretly believing in the old religion. I was very impressed by their dedication, which after all was a courageous act. From the Bible you may know, that the Hebrew priests were ruthless in their crushing of what they believed was "paganism".* Now, the art of healing which I practised was very much connnected to that past. * F.i. "Samuel killed thousands, but David killed ten thousands". I: Please, continue. JESUS: There was a secret network. One day I heard of a woman with special gifts. Logically, I got interested in her. So I tried to contact her. She proved to be a wealthy woman, living independently. Typically a representative of the original Canaanite agricultural community. After some meetings she revealed herself as a priestess of the old religion. I: It is getting very exciting. JESUS: It was. It was a homecoming for me. This woman - Mary Magdalene - had everything I longed for. She had realized the "Seven Stages", which is the highest possible accomplishment in the Mother tradition. So I asked her to become my spiritual guide and teacher. I: How did that look like? JESUS: Well, it was the most intensive training imaginable. It was the time in which I had "disappeared". Many speculations are going around about it. The reason is, that everything had to happen in secret. She taught me the entire tradition. Crucial in it is the Mother Goddess as the Ultimate Reality and Her "first-born", the Son-Lover. Slowly, slowly it dawned upon me, that the only way to revive the tradition is to live it. I: With Mary as the representative of the Mother and you as her Servant. JESUS: That's right. It is the reason why I was annointed by her and not the other way round. It emphasized my ritual role as the Son - "Sacred King" - of the Mother. It would be the beginning of my "public appearence". It also explains why love, women and sex were such an important part of my teaching. In fact, the "revolutionary" thing about them was, that these were the key elements of the Mother religion. Not surprisingly thus, that after my death the clock was immediately turned back in what would become two millennia of outrageous misogyny. I: So your entire effort to promote a "feminine world view" dissolving into thin air. JESUS: As a disciple of the Great Mother I indeed have done everything to restore the Old Tradition. In fact, I have been using concepts like "ruah" and other to indicate , that to me "God" is maternal. In the later Gospels this was replaced by the "Father" though. I: In the "Gospel of Philipp" it is said, that you loved Mary Magdalene more than anybody else. You even frequently kissed her on the mouth. Recently, an entire hype originated about it. What is your comment? JESUS: Obviously my relationship with Mary was very intimate. Some of my male disciples envied her for that. They had little idea of the depth Mary represented. She was the woman, "who knew the All". That's why after my death she took the lead in continuing the teaching as the Apostle of the Apostles. I. Only to be condemned later on as a sinner and a whore*. * Relating her to the "Whore of Babylon", the Churches' description of the original Great Mother! A sign that the Church was very well aware of her true background. JESUS: Yes, by pope Gregor VI. It is a horrible story. They denounced her as part of their campaign against the Mother religion. That's why her "Seven Initiations" were condemned as "seven sins or devils". I: Pff, heavy stuff indeed. But why were you baptized by John, if you already were initiated by Mary? JESUS: John and I had agreed upon it. He was also an initiate. Its purpose was to satisfy the outside world. Through it I would be more easily accepted by the establishment. I: There is confusion about the roles of Mary your mother and Mary Magdalene. Could you explain? JESUS: To distract the believers' attention from the old Mother religion in general and of Mary Magdalene in particular, the Church started to upgrade the position of my mother. She had to become a replacement of the Great Mother, of course without possessing the Latter's Original Power. I: They manoeuvered you in a difficult position. JESUS: Not at all. Everything is like it is. Despite all lies, manipulation and oppression the Truth will prevail. It is what is happening all around you. I: In the Bible it is said, that you turned your back to your mother Mary. Many people interpreted it as a necessity with regard to spiritual life e.g. keeping distance from the feminine. JESUS: This is typically a falsification. Its purpose is to wipe out all traces that could reveal my Mother-oriented teaching. Look at the facts. Who were there, when I was dying on the cross? Who met me first after my resurrexion? I: Summarizing: The idea of the "only begotten son" thus originated in the old tradition. JESUS: Not quite, since every year the Mother had a new Son-Lover. No, its origin is different. It stems from patriarchal practices in which the father wants to secure the transfer of his heritage to the son. It serves the dominance of his lineage. Spiritually, this is non-sense of course. Since the Ultimate is penetrating all, everything without exception participates in the Divine. I: It created the gap between "God" and his creatures. JESUS: Absolutely. Later resulting in the dualism between the sacred and the worldly. It is the main characteristic of patriarchal nomadic religion, in which the sky god and the earth are separated as two independent dimensions. In the Mother tradition on the other hand, both the Divine and the universe are born out of Her Womb, while continuously returning to it. I: Eventually, even you were not able to bridge that gap..... JESUS: Buddhism has been more consistent in this regard. If the Ultimate Reality is indeed penetrating everything and everybody without exception, then everybody is already (potentially) Enlightened. Contrary to Christianity, in which I was supposed to be the "Only Begotten Son" of God, everybody may become a Buddha. I: The consequences can be seen in the shattered society of today. JESUS: By hiding e.g. suppressing the Truth, people were prevented to realize their own True Self. It is the cause of the degeneration of the entire culture. I: While at the same time they were called on to imitate you. JESUS: It was one of the Churches' greatest sins. On the one hand forcing people to "become like me" - qualities like love, humility, kindness, sacrifice, justice etc. - while at the same time deliberately denying them to realize the Divine Spark within from which those qualities originate. I: The Church blocking the road to God, rather than the opposite. JESUS: The purpose is to make people so confused, that they become willing victims of the Churches' oppression. I: There is much controversy about your teaching and that of Paul. Many say that the latter re-invented it in such a way, that the original teaching was more ore less replaced by his. JESUS: Paul was a very clever guy. And not only that. As one of the few he had a God-Experience. So his inspiration came directly from the Source. In fact, he could have become a teacher in his own right. Instead he chose to "upgrade" my teaching. I: With a certain purpose in mind? JESUS: He knew the old tradition. He knew the power of the myth of the Mother with Her dying and resurrected Son. So he immediately understood how my life fitted into that. I: You as the Son of God, sent by the Father in order to redeem mankind. JESUS: Right. In fact, he created Christianity as we know it. I still don't know if I should be happy with it. On the one hand he granted me a status which I don't possess; on the other hand he in a way completed my teaching. One thing is certain: I am not God, but one (among many others) who realized God-Experience. I: In one line with the Gnostics and the Mystics? JESUS: By making me the only "God-person", they deliberately destroyed the work of the Ultimate e.g. the continuity of Revelation to countless women and men. God's purpose is to uninterruptedly renew the tradition, in order to continuously regenerate mankind. By denouncing this, the Church is responsible for the degeneration of the culture. People deprived of their Divine Spark within is the tragedy of the West. I: Putting you in a position, you didn't want to be in yourself? JESUS: What I regret most is this. By making me the "redeemer" - by saying "by his death and resurrexion Christ has taken away the sins from mankind" - he took the possibilities away from people to "die and to become reborn" themselves. The result is the opposite. Rather than becoming liberated, people were cut off from their inner Source, deprived of the possibility of Renewal and Regeneration. I: The latter becoming instead an absolute monopoly of the Church. JESUS: You say it. My passion on the other hand has always been to guide people toward their own God-Realization. I never favored the founding of a Church. Fortunate for you, that you live in a time in which the old structures are collapsing.* * See also "MatriTalks" nr. 70 I: If you would be teaching now, what would your teaching be? JESUS: The essence of every religious teaching is to guide people back to the Source. I confess, that I am totally relieved, that nowadays the Truth can be transmitted without obstacles. In the past I made some mistakes myself, which contributed to the confusion. I: This sounds like a confession (laughing). JESUS: It is. In my enthousiasm to spread the tradition I forgot about practising patience. A certain ambition to gain political power wasn't entirely strange to me either. It has led to premature action like my entry as "a King" into Jerusalem. Logically, the authorities felt threatened. I should have postponed it or entirely cancelled it in favor of more spiritual teaching. I: I thought "your Kingdom wasn't from here". JESUS: To emphasize one Truth is not necessarily denying the other. I considered myself part of the old tradition after all. There the Divine Son is indeed a King. More important though is, that my premature death could have been prevented. Buddha had forty years at his disposal to spreading the dharma. I: So, it wasn't all determined beforehand? JESUS: What do you mean? I: I mean your "death and resurrexion". JESUS: What was preconceived was the archetypical myth of the "dying and resurrecting God" as part of the Great Mother tradition. It offered me a guideline, an ideal so to speak. I did not take it seriously as something that could actually happen to me. Only the very last moment I realized that "the dream had come true". I had two choices: escape, which would mean committing treason to my inner Truth or accepting. You know how it eventually turned out. I: Is this you would like to share with people today? JESUS: Commitment to one's inner Truth is decisive. In order to be fruitful this consciousness has to be connected to the Universal Truth. The Source of Regeneration is the Cosmic Womb. She rules the world through Her Law of the Universe: the dynamic equilibrium between death, rebirth and permanence. The purpose of life is to live and act according to this Law. I: What benefit people would gain from it? JESUS: By surrendering to the Ultimate you will be granted continuous Renewal. Unlike me, who only once "died and resurrected" (laughing) you should continuously be "dying to the old" in order to be reborn. Once realized, you should share your new qualities with the people around you. By doing so, my effort could gain a new meaning. I: Such as? JESUS: As a sprout of a tradition that existed far beyond the time of Judeo-Christian religious belief. My "death and resurrexion" is not something that can be claimed by the latter anymore. It is not exclusive. It is not tied to my person either. It is universal. Through it people will be inspired to "dying to the old" themselves, in order to become reborn. I: What consequences could this have for spirituality in general and the Western tradition in particular? JESUS: These times are characterized by decay. It is an invitation to renew yourself. Not only individuals but the tradition, nay the entire culture should regenerate themselves as well. That is the meaning of the Revelation of the Mother. Through surrender to Her many people will be granted God-Realization. These people will guide others in making the next step in evolution. I: Renewal as a permanent process? JESUS: Religion should be based on continuous Renewal. In fact, this is taking place all the time. Both women and emancipated men - those who have integrated their femininity - occupy a central position here. I don't need believers, but successors! The mystics of past and present are the forerunners. They all realized their Universal Consciousness. I: So there are still sources of inspiration here in the West? JESUS: The turning point is the Revelation of The Great Mother. She is All-Embracing and all existing religions are Her Sons. As Unity in Diversity She is the completion of (wo)man's religious aspiration. Praise the Mother! © 2005 Copyright Han Marie Stiekema |